"I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history." -Cardinal Francis George

Wednesday, January 25, 2012

I don't like Libertarianism

The following is my comments on an article forwarded to me. It is by a Libertarian who is explaining why he like Libertarianism.

"We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives"



By starting with this obviously false principle, Libertarians allow falseness to permeate the rest of their destructive philosophy. Of course we are not free to do evil, even to ourselves. And of course we all have the duty to obey the natural law and to honor and obey God. This is self evident.

Having said that, I would much, much, much rather have a Libertarian in office than many other alternative options, including our campainer in chief Osama Obama. I would group libertarianism in the "more of the same" category as all the post French Revolution government styles that talk big about the "rights" of man. Yawn.

They pick and choose from the natural law what they like and what they don't. They talk big about rights, but then choose who gets them. They claim that everyone should be free from coercion of any sort. But their worldview is what the coercion is based on. And yes, my worldview is what my brand of coercion is based on. Mine happens to be correct though.

To them, my family growing up in a godless and wicked Sodom is something that I should not care about because it is other people doing the sodomizing and baby killing. Wrong. No one has the right to do evil. When your neighbor does evil, it affects the community. If possible, he should be prevented from doing the evil. What could be more obvious than that fact?

Libertarians like the guy in the article agree that evil should be coercively stopped in the case of certain crimes (car theft) but not others (sodomy, child-murder). They do this because they define evil differently.

It is not that they do not look to religion to define evil, they just look to their false religion, where man is the highest being, to define evil. So when they point the finger at judgy old Archbishop Dolan, they are pointing at themselves too. Both them and Dolan have a set of rules they wish to coersively conform society to. From my perspective, the difference between them is that Dolan's rules are easy to look up (in Scripture and Tradition), they are consistent, and they conform to the natural law. The guy who wrote this article is just making up his rules as he goes it seems. He states all his opinions as if they are the gospel truth, yet where does he get his opinions from and what authority does he have to impose them on my family? Who knows. But he certainly would love to impose his ideas on my family, that is clear enough.

In his criticism of Dolan he said:




...but rather he is interested in restricting your liberty by attempting to declare various forms of family planning "immoral" and restricting their availability.

The moral law tells all humans regardless of religion that things like sterilization and murder are wrong. So there can be no "right" or "liberty" to do these things. That would not be liberty but license.

I repeat: That would not be liberty but license.

We have libery to do good. But there can be no liberty to do evil. It is not up to man to decide to grant license to do evil anymore than it is up to him to make the sky green. This is a universal law that does not need to be defended. It just is what it is. Yet this Libertarian is defending people who wish to use abortifacient means of contraception which kill children who are clearly protected by the constitution. So here we have the same old Orwelian situation of equality. "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". "All people have equal rights, but some people (women of childbearing age) have more rights than other (unborn) peopl"e. One person is murdering another person with different heart, DNA, fingerprints, brain, and blood type, but somehow in the Libertarian world this is not pissing on another human beings rights to murder them.

He also judgingly criticizes Dolan for judging ...*gasp*... something as immoral. But like I said, it is not Dolan who can declare anything to be moral or immoral. Dolan is simply stating the fact that murder is wrong. "Restricting the availability" of abortifacient contraceptives is akin to a society "restricting the availability" of child porn. Both things are gave evils that have no good use. Unlike an evil like adultery, where the sex is not an evil in itself but the context is evil, pornography and abortifacient contraceptives are evil every time they are used. Unlike something like a gun, which can be used for good or evil, they have no good purpose. Murder is always wrong. Lust is always wrong. Government should protect people from evil regardless of how weak (unborn human life) or strong (wealthy businessman) they are. Instead, what I see from Libertarians is just more of the same "some animals are more equal than others" mentality.

Worst of all, they wrap themselves in the flag of "liberty" and pretend they are not forcing their will upon others. Nothing could be more wrong. Having a society where unborn humans are murdered affects me! Having a society where evil is an allowable option affects me! Even in situations where evil is done seemingly by and to only myself or other willing participants, it is still evil. Allowing it affects the rest of society. Also, in almost every case, Libertarians overlook the unwilling participants. In the case of divorce, they overlook the children and the spouses themselves who are damaged by the divorce. In the case of abortion, they overlook the murdering of innocent children.

A moral society based on the natural law and Distributism is the way to go. Then we can all be, not free to do evil, but truly free.

15 comments:

  1. Amen. Amen. Amen. Excellent thoughts.

    In many ways Libertarianism is more liberal than Liberalism.

    Even the supposedly Pro-Life Liberatarians would never do anything to end legal abortion. They may seek to overturn Roe, but they never would fight for a Constitutional Amendment to make it illegal as they view it as a state's rights issue.

    They say get governemnt out of the marriage business and let anyone contract a "marriage". Of course they fail to realize that the government historically recognized the institution for it's obvious benefit to society. A government has a responsibility to defend the foundational institution of society.

    And the most nonsensical claim is that they are the only pure Constitutionalists. Nonsense. They ignore the premise that the Constitution hinges on - The Declaration of Independence.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Notice how the only word that matters to them is "Liberty" but not the self-evident truth that our rights come from our Creator. The founding fathers were not Libertarians. They had an entirely different set of presuppositions about the very nature of man.

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  2. Yep. And the fact that one of those "self evident" truths is the right to life is either missed or ignored by libertarians. Killing a baby with unique DNA from the mother is depriving another human of their most basic right!

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  3. I am a libertarian and I was a pretty extreme one as a Protestant. This is still an ongoing issue for me and I'm praying about it. I realize it's a minority but there are some vocal Catholic libertarians ones such as Thomas Woods and Jeff Tucker.

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  4. I've been reading all I can on distributism to attempt to learn about it, and to be honest, I can't find any straight forward teachings on it.

    From what I can gather:
    1. It's Catholic (should be reason enough for Catholics to support.)
    2. It advocates redistributing wealth.
    3. There isn't any guidelines on how this redistribution should occur.
    4. It doesn't address the use of force in the act of redistribution.

    I think Dave paints an incorrect position of libertarianism. First of all, on abortion, Libertarians have tried to amend the constitution to define life at conception. This seems to be exactly opposite of what Dave said (yes, I'm calling him a liar).

    As to marriage, if it is a sacrament, what legitimacy can government provide to it that the church doesn't? I have long held the view that marriage has been destroyed by government when the church handed over control to it. However, I do believe that any two people should be able to make any type of contract they want with one another. Those contract should allow for inheritances, hospital visits, sharing of property - pretty much all the normal things that 'married' people take for granted. The fact that government prohibits these types of contracts between 2 people is immoral. Free people can make contracts. Government should be there to enforce them.

    I suppose Distributism might be in line with the constitution, but given the willingness to use force against others, I'm not so sure.

    Also, please stop painting Libertarians as baby-killers. It is false. If they were, why do they fight so hard to overturn Roe, and amend the constitution? Smack that straw man some more!

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  5. Also, I think this topic could use 2 separate posts. There is a lot of overlap between economics and morality. However, if my understanding is correct, Distributism is an economic theory, and libertariansism is a government theory. Distributism might be better paired against Austrian economics (which is an economic theory that goes well with libertarianism).

    In other words, it is hard to discuss both abortion and government interference in the monetary supply in the same post.

    My preference is to keep it at the economic level - there is much more name calling and bad blood at the morality level - and I don't see a lot of fruitful discussion taking place with all the 1/2 truths flying around.

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  6. Bob said:
    “I've been reading all I can on distributism to attempt to learn about it, and to be honest, I can't find any straight forward teachings on it.
    From what I can gather:
    1. It's Catholic (should be reason enough for Catholics to support.)
    2. It advocates redistributing wealth.
    3. There isn't any guidelines on how this redistribution should occur.
    4. It doesn't address the use of force in the act of redistribution.”

    Statements 2, 3 and 4 are so wrong that I can’t even answer. Please show me anything anywhere that says Distributism redistributes wealth. It is as if you didn’t even bother to look at wikipedia, let alone more reliable sources. What you have said here is the equivalent of me saying “I did a lot of research on igloos and there is not much info, but the main point seems to be about keeping eskimos out of the sweltering arctic heat”.

    If you want some links I can provide:
    The Wiki is not bad on this topic.

    Also the distributist review is a good site.

    An audio interview I listened to the other day was good: http://distributistreview.com/mag/audiovideo/video/ Look for the RadTrad interview.

    Bob said: “I think Dave paints an incorrect position of libertarianism. First of all, on abortion, Libertarians have tried to amend the constitution to define life at conception. This seems to be exactly opposite of what Dave said (yes, I'm calling him a liar).”

    I will present the facts and let them decide if I lied.
    First, that is great if some sub-set of Libertarians want to do the right thing and outlaw abortion. But do you deny that IN GENERAL Libertarians are pro-choice? Ok that is anechdotal. But one thing is not anechdotal: their party’s official position is pro-choice. This position says it is OK to murder certain humans. They think that murder is a question that should be left “to each person”. But that position is evil. Murder is murder. And governments should protect those who are being murdered. This isn’t a matter of opinion that Libertarians believe this, and it is not a lie for me to say it. There are certainly exceptions (I hope you are one of them), but read this from the Libertarian Party platform: http://www.lp.org/platform

    “We believe that government should be kept out of the matter [abortion], leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration”

    continued...

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  7. ...continued...
    Bob said:
    “As to marriage, if it is a sacrament, what legitimacy can government provide to it that the church doesn't?”

    None. The government cannot make or break a marriage.

    “However, I do believe that any two people should be able to make any type of contract they want with one another.”

    I know you believe that, and you are wrong. Can 2 theives make a contract that they are going to rob a bank and split it 50-50? No way. Can people make a contract that they are going to live as husband and wife if they are of the same sex? No way. A good government sees and treats families as the highest unit in society. Sodomites cannot form a family. Period. So therefore they should not be recognized as being one. Period. This has nothing to do with the validity of sacramental marriages. Catholics and Orthodox still have sacramental marriages no matter what the government does. In 10 years when polygamy and dog marriages are allowed, I will still have a sacramental marriage.
    Let me ask you an easy yes or no question on this issue: Should children that are up for adoption go to a same sex ‘couple’? If their contract is the same as mine, why not? Why should the government call my union more worthy for adoption than theirs?

    “My preference is to keep it at the economic level - there is much more name calling and bad blood at the morality level”
    Economics is a moral issue. So is Government. If there were no moral issues, we would need no government.

    “Also, please stop painting Libertarians as baby-killers. It is false.”

    MOST Libertarians are ok with murdering babies. That is an indisputable fact. Need more proof? Or will you just conceede this very uncontroversial point?

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  8. Quote:

    “However, I do believe that any two people should be able to make any type of contract they want with one another.”

    I know you believe that, and you are wrong. Can 2 theives make a contract that they are going to rob a bank and split it 50-50? No way.

    /Quote

    Talk about an argument from absurdity. My (unstated) implication was that so long as it is an un-coercive contract, why not. Obviously, thieves coerce others. However, 2 gay people could start a business and split the profits 50-50 (un-coercive). Governments job is to enforce all such un-coercive contracts.

    I'm not going to beat the abortion horse here. It is possible to be both a pro-choice or a pro-life libertarian. The dividing line is weather you take 'your body is your property' line to it's logical conclusion, or if you temper that with teachings about sanctity of life.

    People are going to kill their young no matter what. The question is 'what do we do about it?' Do we lock em all up? Execute them? When, for a 3rd term pregnancy, 2nd, just for using contraception? Libertarianism doesn't (and can't) answer the moral argument... it is not designed to do that. What it attempts to answer is the legal question - what should happen to those people who have an abortion / use contraception. Are they 'legally' wrong, so that the community must use coercive force against them?

    As to your question about the gay couple... I have a single mom as a neighbor. She has 3 kids (autistic 10 year old, an 8 year old, and a 2 year old). She and her kids are regularly up at 2:30 in the morning, I can hear them outside my window. By all accounts she is not a good mom. If she were to become pregnant again, I'm sure having an abortion would be an option for her.

    So is it better for the gay couple to adopt a potentially aborted child, or for her to kill her young? Neither are a great situation, but I'm not ready to ban the gay couple solution. My preference is a heterosexual marriage, but in a pinch I'll take some love and 3 square meals.

    Would you be OK with an adoption to a family with a compulsive gambler? Or how about one where the male had an elective vasectomy? Or heck - how about they happen to be JW's instead of RC's? I'm not sure why homosexuality has greater weight than any other sin.

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  9. Here is another blog (from a catholic) that explains another angle of the pro-life libertarian position. He get's his argument from Thomas Aquinas and the needy thief:

    http://joeahargrave.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/pro-life-libertarianism/

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  10. "Would you be OK with an adoption to a family with a compulsive gambler? Or how about one where the male had an elective vasectomy? Or heck - how about they happen to be JW's instead of RC's? I'm not sure why homosexuality has greater weight than any other sin."

    Let me point out the bait and switch you just did here and show you how you have become a relativist and seperated your Christian faith from informing your position on these 2 issues (abortion and gay marriage).

    Here are the 2 things you compare (my emphasis):

    1. "Would you be OK with an adoption to a family with a compulsive gambler?"

    2. "I'm not sure why homosexuality has greater weight than any other sin."

    Not adopting a kid to two sodomites is not about sin. It is about the fact that they are not a family. This is why single people should not adopt either. As a child who grew up in a broken home from the time I was 2, I have anecdotal evidence, but it shouldnt matter. Any human being should be able to admit what is obvious: kids need a mom and a dad. No one knows this better than a child of a broken home. Even my single mother will be the first to admit that fact.

    As for your choice, it is a false choice. Of course there should be priorities when doing adoptions. At the top of the list should be married couples who lead a reasonably moral lifestyle. When those run out we can move down the list to compulsive gamblers. And YES that is better than a sodomite! Do you seriously think having a non-family with 2 homosexual dads is better than having a real family with a dad who has problems?

    The choice is between a family and not. That is an easy choice. ANd if you think a homosexual couple "loves" their adopted kids, you are seriously deluded. Think of the damage they have done. They have purposely deprived these children of a family with a mother and father. That is not love. That is abuse.

    And dont bother trying to say there is nowhere else for them to go than to single or gay people. The waiting lists are long for real families to adopt. People pay 30K to go to china to adopt, while I have seen lesbians with 2 kids. That is what results form the dictatorship of relativism you have succomed to. Real, innocent people get hurt when government does not uphold the natural law.

    "People are going to kill their young no matter what."

    This says it all. SO just because people are going to murder children, we as a society should not bother to lift a finger IN ANY WAY to prevent it? Sick.

    You mentioned executing people, not me. I would be fine to just make it illegal again and take it from there. Oh I can here it now "what about the back alley abortions!!"

    Relativism sucks Bob.

    So just to be clear:

    Yes or No:

    Should abortion be legal in the United States?

    Yes or No Bob.

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  11. quote:

    And dont bother trying to say there is nowhere else for them to go than to single or gay people. The waiting lists are long for real families to adopt. People pay 30K to go to china to adopt, while I have seen lesbians with 2 kids. That is what results form the dictatorship of relativism you have succomed to. Real, innocent people get hurt when government does not uphold the natural law.
    /quote

    The fact that government has made it difficult for normal families to adopt isn't the fault of libertarianism. If anything, libertarianism is the solution to that problem. The red tape, the money... that's because of coercive laws.

    quote
    Do you seriously think having a non-family with 2 homosexual dads is better than having a real family with a dad who has problems?
    /quote

    As for homosexuals adopting kids and calling it 'abuse' because they are 'depriving' them of a normal family... thats a stretch. I would argue that most of those kids are better off with the homosexuals than they were in their original family. I'm unwilling to grant that the homosexual's sins are greater than the hetrosexuals. It also depends on what the Dad's 'problems' are. I can list a number of situations where I would prefer gay parents to 'problems'.

    should abortion be legal? No. (easy question).

    quote
    SO just because people are going to murder children, we as a society should not bother to lift a finger IN ANY WAY to prevent it? Sick.
    /quote

    Straw man alert. I never said that - never have.

    I believe that the libertarian way will outlaw abortion the quickest. This all-or-nothing at the federal level hasn't done a lick of good.

    Start with the repeal of roe, then tackle the issue state by state. Banging your head on the supreme court won't get you anywhere.

    If my state decided to outlaw abortions, I would support it (depending on the penalties, and exactly what it covered). I don't think I would support throwing drunk college girls in the slammer for 20 years - I don't see the point in destroying 2 lives. Illegal requires penalties. I would prefer a system where people are encouraged to give kids up for adoption, and abortion is outed for what it is.

    Using coersion and fear of jail on a teenager seems irresponsible. How about a society that says 'you made a mistake (getting pregnant), we love you anyway, here are 30 families ready to step in and adopt - and it won't cost them upwards of 20 grand to do it'.

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  12. "As for homosexuals adopting kids and calling it 'abuse' because they are 'depriving' them of a normal family... thats a stretch.

    I would argue that most of those kids are better off with the homosexuals than they were in their original family."

    Then go ahead and argue it. You havent. And your position is utterly ridiculous. Children need families.

    Glad to see that you appear to have conceded my point that libertarians (generally) think murduring babies is an option left to personal choice.

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  13. Libertarians generally think lots of things. It is a big tent. Defending liberty can mean defending the 'rights' of the mother, or the 'rights' of the unborn.

    I believe that the non-aggression principle would tip the scales in the favor of the unborn. Justification of that is a moral question though, not a legal question.

    It is entirely possible to be both pro-life and a libertarian. To insist otherwise is to be dishonest. Do you concede that point?

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  14. I believe you were calling this Dave a liar. I will simply answer you with the Libertarian Party platform on Abortion:

    1.4 Abortion

    Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

    Apology accepted in advance.

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  15. Why do you arrogantly assume I need to apologize to Dave? Here are the facts from the thread.

    1. Dave said "Even the supposedly Pro-Life Liberatarians would never do anything to end legal abortion. They may seek to overturn Roe, but they never would fight for a Constitutional Amendment to make it illegal as they view it as a state's rights issue."

    2. I indicated this is not true, and provided an example: "First of all, on abortion, Libertarians have tried to amend the constitution to define life at conception." For further reading on this example, see Ron Paul and his work to define life at conception. At this point, I call Dave a lair, since the facts do not line up with his assertion.

    3. You quote the libertarian party (not to be confused with the set of people called 'libertarians' which we are discussing) that indicates a non-stance on abortion.

    I understand where you may confuse pro-life libertarians positions with the libertarian party's position, but that would be akin to equating Nancy Pelosi's pro-death position with the Catholic church's position.

    So no, I do not apologize, and I think both you and Dave are still attempting to slander all libertarians by associating them with the pro-choice philosophy that sometimes accompanies libertarian thought. Dave has still lied about libertarians not attempting to end abortion, and you are perpetuating the lie with your straw man tactics.

    The libertarian party does not speak for all libertarians, and has constructed its positions (on abortion and other topics) in such a way to allow libertarians in both camps to come together and fight government largess in our lives. On the issue of abortion, it takes a non-stance.

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