Bob said:
I took your advice, and started reading the RCC Catechism. I'm pretty sure I found a place where the Roman Catholic Church is teaching error. It is sufficient evidence for me, but I'm sure that you lot won't accept it.
In particular, the issue is the teaching of the 10 commandments. I understand and recognize the ten commandments to be those laid out in Exodus 20: 3-17.
The RCC, however, in teaching their catechism does something quite sneaky. The first thing they do is diminish the 2nd commandment, making it a footnote of the first and stripping it of any meaning. Instead of "You shall not make for yourself an image", the teaching is "images of saints are OK".
All the other commandments then get bumped up a number... which leaves you with 9. Not exactly convincing, since at the very least people know that God gave Moses 10. To make up for this discrepancy, they split the true 10th commandment into 2 commandments - effectively "don't covet" and "don't covet v. 2".
You can see this teaching quite clearly from the Vatican website - just scroll through the table of contents, it should jump out at you. The 10 commandments are in part 3 section 2.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
The obvious reason for this is that the RCC has tons of idols, but they don't want to admit they are idols. At the very least, they should have tackled this commandment head-on instead of playing a numbers game with them. I guess this is just a case where the tradition knows more than the actual Word of God.
Bob, you made it really far into the CCC! Or you are skipping around. Nothing wrong with that, just sayin. Either way, congrats for going to the source for your research. That makes choices easier.
Unfortunately you say:
"It is sufficient evidence for me, but I'm sure that you lot won't accept it."
Well, if it passed muster as being evidence, then I would consider it, but it just does not. Neither would Luther BTW, but I will get to that.
Here is what the INTRO to the section on the first commandment says:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7B.HTM
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."
The prohibition against making graven images is right there in the catechism Bob!
My daughter learned the 10 commandments last year in her religion class at Holy Family and she learned the part about graven images. We just number them differently, as do many PROTESTANTS who have zero love for Rome.
Get this Bob, my LUTHERAN mother learned the “graven images” as part of the FIRST commandment too! That is right, perhaps you don’t know this (perhaps because you grew up Reformed) but Lutherans use the same numbering as Catholics! So did many church fathers, among which Augustine stands out. And Orthodox (who venerate images like there is no tomorrow) use the Reformed numbering, go figure. (or I guess the Reformed use the Orthodox numbering… chicken/egg thing)
So are Lutherans “sneaky” too?
“I understand and recognize the ten commandments to be those laid out in Exodus 20: 3-17”
Uh, yeah, so do all Christians. No crap. But if you’ll notice, they are not numbered dude. They are also in Deuteronomy 5, but there again, no numbering.
“The first thing they do is diminish the 2nd commandment…”
Huh? The second commandment for Catholics is to not take the Lord’s name in vain. Potentially a mortal sin because it is a serious matter. We don’t diminish it! You are using your numbering to correct their (and Luther’s and Augustines) numbering. Who cares about numbering. The point is what the commandments SAY. And Catholics still accept fully the command against graven images. As do you. We just understand it differently.
The point is though, the prohibition against graven images IS RIGHT THERE IN THE CATHOLIC FIRST COMMANDMENT! Nothing is ignored or deleted! For goodness sake Bob, even the Rabbis from the Jewish Talmidic tradition have traditionally held all the separate parts of the first commandment (Catholic one) to form one solid unit.
There are THREE parts of the same prohibition of idolatry, which I know you agree are all related: 1. Have no other gods before God, 2. Don’t make idols, 3. Don’t bow down to idols.
Catholics (and Lutherans) have ALL THREE in their first commandment. You have parts 2 and 3 as your second commandment. Both ways have them though.
Which begs the question, why isnt your third commandment Exodus 20:5/Deut 5:9 “You shall not bow down to them or serve them…”?
These Deuteronomy and Exodus verses are specifically about not bowing down, and are some of the more lengthy verses. Certainly longer than the “You shall not kill” ones. So WHY is that not one of your 10? Could it be because it is so similar to the other 2 parts of the commandment (no other gods, no graven images) that it is redundant to make it its own commandment?
Within the CCC section titled “the first commandment”, is a whole section about graven images. No sneakyness. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM
What you don’t like is your interpretation contradicting the other ¾ of Christendom of the past 2000 years.
The Orthodox have your numbering, yet venerate images!
The Holy Spirit, through the Church at the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) has spoken, and you want to do your own thing.
“The obvious reason for this is that the RCC has tons of idols, but they don't want to admit they are idols.”
Yeah, it is a big conspiracy. With the Orthodox as well. 2000 years of godly men are all deceived, but Bob is not. Yeah.
“At the very least, they should have tackled this commandment head-on instead of playing a numbers game with them.”
It was tackled in 787AD! Been there done that! And the Orthodox have YOUR numbering but yet still venerate images! So there is no numbers game.
“ I guess this is just a case where the tradition knows more than the actual Word of God.”
The Word of God IS the Tradition AND the Scripture! You are making a false division of two inseperable things. And what you are calling the “Word of God” is really just your interpretation. Unless you want to show me where the numbering system is in the scripture. Even Luther would be looking at you with the squinty eyes right now man.
Veneration is not idolatry. Saying it is "obviously" idolatry is not convincing. Because MOST Christians of all ages have had zero problem with veneration of saints through images. Even ones who were angered by pagan images of false gods have venerated images of Christ and the saints! They saw a clear distinction between the two practices.
Peace
First of all, the prohibition isn't against idols, it is against "graven images" - specifically those that are bowed down to and/or worshiped.
ReplyDeleteThose 2 differences are indeed important. Statues themselves are not idols, and bowing down != worship. However, the act of bowing down was condemned by the commandment, as is the worship. The commandment also condemns making graven images (3d sculptures) for the purpose of bowing down to them and/or worship.
As to the Orthodox, they at least make a distinction between icons (flat paintings) and statues. This distinction comes from the belief that icons are a window into the spirit realm, where as a statue can "contain" a spirit itself. A quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon
"Creating free-standing, three-dimensional sculptures of holy figures was resisted by Christians for many centuries, out of the belief that daimones inhabited pagan sculptures, and also to make a clear distinction between Christian and pagan art. To this day, in obedience to the commandment not to make "graven images", Orthodox icons may never be more than three-quarter bas relief."
Obviously, the RCC has parted ways with the Orthodox belief on "sculptures in the round" and has expanded Nicaea II to include "graven images" as well as icons.
The end result from departing from this tradition and interpretation of Nicaea II is that RC Churches are filled with idols, and Orthodox churches are filled with icons. There seems to be a lot of bowing down in both churches.
If a Buddhist bows down to his Buddha, we would both call it idolatry - though in essence the Buddhist is venerating Buddha - the deceased intellectual leader of the Buddhist religion. I fail to see a meaningful distinction between what the Buddhist does and what the RCC teaches. Is it the religion of the deceased person that makes one act righteous? Or should both acts be condemned since both acts are the same? I've said it before and I'll say it again, what you DO matters.
Ok, first off, if you like the Orthodox reasoning, then go with that man. But as you yourself implied, they are bowing and kissing WAY MORE than Catholics do. And do you buy the bit about demons inhabiting a statue but not an icon? Come on. It could do either. The part about statues looking similar to pagan stuff makes sense though. Avoid the apperance of evil and such. If that were a real concern today, as it was in the ancient world which was FULL of idolatrous statues, then I would have a problem with it. But it is laughable that you think just because I BOW or kneel before a statue that it makes it automatically an idol.I will ghive 3 examples:
ReplyDelete1. What about a crucifix Bob? Answer me that. If I bow before a crucifix and kiss it, and pray to Jesus is that idolatry? Of course not. I am giving that honor (Latria in this case) to Christ, NOT to a peice of wood/metal.
2. It is 1530 and I bow before King Henry VIII (as many Catholocs and Protestants both did!) Is that autimatically idolatry?
3. I bow before a statue of the BVM. (Mary) Idolatry just for bowing? Latria (modern sense of worship) just for bowing?
Obviously all three ACTIONS are the same, but (1.) is Worship (Lartia), (2.) is a show of respect to someone greater than oneself or to their position (dulia). (3.) is a great show of respect (hyper-dulia)
If you admit someone can bow before a king and not commit idolatry, then you HAVE to admit that Catholics are not necessarily comiting idolatry. Period.
You said bowing = worship. Yes and no. What did people say to kings of England (Catholic kings and Protestant ones both) in centuries past as the BOWED down before them... "your worship... your majesty" etc. Were they idolaters? No way. But that word is not used differently to mean ONLY the worship due to God alone. It was not always used that way.
Where in the world do you get the idea that bowing down equals worship? Does kissing equal worship to? It just does not add up. You are looking through 20th/21st century glasses and anachronistically expecting past centuries to line up to tyour expectations. Aint gonna happen. People have been bowing and kissing as a sign of respect for as long as there have been people. The modern use of the word "worship" had nothing to do with their sign of respect.
And I would not call all Budhists idolaters for bowing. Some of them are atheists, Budha is merely a teacher to them, others, like in Japan, would probably be bowing in worship of an idol, so then it is idolatry.
Yeah, what we do does matter. Catholics understand that way better than Reformed people.
Catholics KNEEL to pray.
Because we know that what we DO matters.
Catholics verbally confess.
Because we know that what we DO matters.
Catholics make the sign of the cross.
Because we know that what we DO matters.
Catholics use candals and insence and holy water as sacramentals to point us to the sacraments.
Because we know that what we DO matters.
Catholics put ashes on our forehead on ash Wednesday as a reminder of our mortality.
Because we know that what we DO matters.
Typo.
ReplyDeleteI meant to sat "that word is NOW used differently to mean ONLY the worship due to God alone. It was not always used that way."
Not "that word is NOT used..."
As with the commandment to keep the sabath holy, both you and be leaven that with a lot of new covenant yeast. We still obey it, but we see it through new eyes in Christ. We are at once more free, but at the same time more responsible in love.
ReplyDeleteSuch it is with the first commandment. II Nicaea recognized that after the incarnation, God and saints and angels can be represented now. The main thrust of the commandment is NO IDOLATRY. We should be looking to our everyday idols like our possesions and comfort as idols, not statues of St. Fransis. We still obey the command to not make graven images, but we see it through new eyes in Christ. We are at once more free, but at the same time more responsible in love. The graven images need to be removed from our heart. Just like the foreskins of our heart.
BTW Bob, forgot to mention, seen any good movies lately? How do those images look? Feel guilty for breaking the command? Seen the Passion of the Christ? Ever played with gi joe figures? Lets get serious.
ReplyDeleteYour last comment is argument from absurdity. I have and will never imply that images in themselves are "evil" - or even statues. It is the bowing that is the problem. GI Joe falls safely into the "I don't bow down to it" category.
ReplyDeleteBowing down to Kings is a grey area. Daniel was thrown into the lions den for not bowing down. Kings are notorious for taking titles and honor that is not due them. The title of "your worship" is idolatrous, as who is worthy of worship other than God alone? Just because someone is privileged to receive taxes instead of paying them doesn't grant them the right to be worshiped. Even more so, they should bow to us (the tax payers) as we are the source of their ability to languish in wealth. Ought we to bow in Obama's presence? But I digress.
Let me ask the question - would you bow if the statue wasn't there? Why must the "appearance of evil" be present to illicit the bow? And yet the statue is there, and does illicit the bow.
I would not see bowing to the cross as appropriate either. Neither would I bow (or make other gestures) to the American flag. As the cross is the symbol of my Christian faith, so is the flag a symbol of my birth in this land. Neither symbol means anything without the substance, and it is the substance that should be bowed to (for the cross, not the flag).
I am also OK with kneeling to pray, because in that moment you are ascending to the throne of God with your praise and petitions. I don't see the sense in kneeling while the cross is being carried around the sanctuary. Neither the symbol or the one carrying it need kneeling to.
I don't understand the obsession with kissing either. Does the wood benefit from the kiss? Do your lips enjoy the lifelessness there? Is there some theology I'm missing about the object becoming the flesh and blood it represents?
Another question - who (alive) should I be bowing down to in this world? Since it is such a common thing to do, perhaps we should do it more. Political leaders are a prime target, as are religious. Who do you bow down to? Surely if you are ready to defend the practice of bowing to statues, then finding someone alive today should be pretty easy to do.
ReplyDeleteI can't think of anyone alive today that I would bow to... much less the lifeless statue. I get it, veneration - is no one worthy of veration today?
Just to throw in a monkey wrench...
ReplyDeleteThe Protestant numbering causes coveting a woman to be packed into the same commandment as coveting property. Women (and men) are human and have the imago dei. To covet a human being is a vastly different thing than to covet property. However graven images are by their nature part and parcel of idolatry. It makes logical sense to include graven images with the discussion of idolatry, and to separate sexual lust from greed.
@anonymous
ReplyDeleteThere is already a commandment against adultery, and women were often regarded as property when the commands were written.
Also, much of today's idolatry (outside the RCC) has nothing to do with graven images.
Again, the original point being that the warning against graven images is either meaningless in today's culture, or the RCC is the greatest offender. I prefer to take Exodus at face value. I would go so far as to say that you would be hard pressed to find a "graven image" used for idolatry anywhere, unless you count those found within the RCC.
Has the 2nd commandment lost its relevance?
"Bowing down to Kings is a grey area. Daniel was thrown into the lions den for not bowing down."
ReplyDeleteNo. It is not a grey area AT ALL. Not gonna let that pass. It rubs against your sensibilities, heck, it rubs against mine, but that is our modern hang up. I would hate to have to bow before Obama, but in times past, before our "egalitarian" age, we would bow to show respect, and there would be no idolatry involved.
Your exegesis is off, because Daniel was thrown in for not bowing before an idol who was being worshiped. It was not as if he refused to simply bow before the king, which is something he most certainly would have done, it was that he refused to commit IDOLATRY. I guarantee you there were times he bowed low to earthly authorities as a sign of respect. Notice the action of bowing is the same, but Daniel properly distinguishes between adoration and veneration.
"The title of "your worship" is idolatrous, as who is worthy of worship other than God alone?"
Your anachronism knows no bounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronism
You are simply and completely wrong. Look up the etemology of the word. In English the word has two meanings unfortunately. It comes from the old English "your worth-ship" or "worthiness" which means "to give worth to something". Simple as that dude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship
If you insist that the title "your worship" is idolatrous, this conversation is over, because you will be claiming something that is historically simply not true, and proveably so. Perhaps the ENGLISH word "worship" is moving toward the meaning of "adoration due to God alone", I think it is, but it was not always so. Like if you claimed the sky is green. Your insistance that it is idolatrous is classic anachronism. Your post-French Revolution sensibilities want everyone equal, and you see any show of submission to another to be an act of worship. Thats fine, go ahead and think that, but DO NOT take your paradigm and force it into the past. You will not be getting an acurate picture.
In Latin and Greek, there are seperate words for giving honor or "worth", and for worship due to God alone. From Latin we get Adoration (due only to God) and veneration (can be offered to saints). Externally, they may look the same. Just like you would in the 16th century bowing before your king. And do not try to tell me you would not bow before your king in the 16th century! That is like you saying that you would have invented the automobile had you lived then. Please.
"Let me ask the question - would you bow if the statue wasn't there?"
ReplyDeleteUh, yeah, I suppose. Sometimes at home we kneel down in an area of the house with no statue around. I think you are not understanding the Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican theology behind images. Obviously if I kiss a cricifix, I am showing LATRIA/Worship/Adoration to Christ. To Christ. This is why you would die before you stepped on a crucifix. If we were forced like the Christian Samurais in the novel "Shogun" to mash a crucifix into the ground with our foot, we would not do it. I am guessing we would (Lord willing) choose martyrdom. But hey Bob, that is just a piece of "lifeless wood" as you say. So why not step on it? What if they asked us to step on a statue of a Hindu god? I would go for it. The point is, (and you were quite right about this!) WHAT WE DO MATTERS. Kissing a crucifix has the opposite meaning of stepping on it. Both actions are SAYING something. We are saying something with our body, which as humans, we like to do.
If my daughter dies in a plane crash and no body is recovered, and at the memorial I kiss a picture of her, I am kissing her Bob. There is a real sense in which I am kissing her. Not physically, of course, but my intent is clear. Do people at the memorial service think I am giving adoration due to God alone to her?
Here is the CCC:
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
"I don't see the sense in kneeling while the cross is being carried around the sanctuary. Neither the symbol or the one carrying it need kneeling to."
You seem to insist on telling people what they are doing. I think you are refering to the monstrance containing a consecrated host, not the cross procession at a mass, if that is true, people are kneeling to JESUS. You can quible whether He is truly there or not, but they believe He is PHISICALLY present. Body, blood, soul, and divinity. They do not believe they are kneeling before anything but God himself.
IF IT WERE merely a crucifix, as in my chapel at home, kneeling would still be a great thing to do. Christ might not be physically present, but God is present in other ways. If you saw me kneeling before a crucifix, are you seriously going to acuse me of idolatry? I think you know who I am worshipping at that moment, and it aint a piece of wood. Give me a break with this childish nonsense!
"I don't understand the obsession with kissing either. Does the wood benefit from the kiss? Do your lips enjoy the lifelessness there? Is there some theology I'm missing about the object becoming the flesh and blood it represents?"
ReplyDeleteThere is theology you have missed concerning sacramentals, but also relics. Kissing/touching 1st class relics (actual pieces of saints) is a great practice. These people are alive right at that moment in the beatific vision of God. Just as in the bible when the bones of Elisha/ja resurected someone, these relics have true power. Because the person with God has that power. Catholics do not have to venerate relics, but are allowed to.
"Another question - who (alive) should I be bowing down to in this world? Since it is such a common thing to do, perhaps we should do it more. Political leaders are a prime target, as are religious. Who do you bow down to? Surely if you are ready to defend the practice of bowing to statues, then finding someone alive today should be pretty easy to do."
ReplyDeleteSmartassitude aside, like I said, it is no longer a custom in the west to bow to people or kiss their ring of office or what have you. If it were a sign of respect to bow low to a leader or elder etc. as it is in Japan, then I would be bowing all over the place. The equivalent now would be calling Obama "sir" or "Mr. President". Which I would happily do. He is an idiot, but the office deserves respect.
Again you are anachronistically expecting everything to be just like egalitarian post revolutionary western culture.
"Again, the original point being that the warning against graven images is either meaningless in today's culture, or the RCC is the greatest offender."
ReplyDeleteIt is not either or other than in you mind. If you read the entire CCC on the 1st commandment, it goes into GREAT DETAIL on the entire issue of how idolatry applies today. It even goes into graven images. The warning is anything but meaningless, the new covenant has expanded it.
"I prefer to take Exodus at face value."
I am glad you're still admitting it is simply your preference of how to interpret it. As long as you put yourself above the Church, and above the multitude of godly men who disagree with your interpretation such as Augustine, the Nicaea II fathers, Aquinas, etc, as long as you see yourself above them, and able to judge them, then you will be sure to wander in a denomination of 1. Call it Brentonism.
The magisterium does not expect you to just roll over and play dead, there is plenty of good reasoning out there, but as long as you judge its reasoning by your standard, calling it's veneration of saints and adoration of God through images idolatry, you will not see things from her perspective.
"I would go so far as to say that you would be hard pressed to find a "graven image" used for idolatry anywhere, unless you count those found within the RCC."
That is just dumb. I think you might just be trying to rile me or something. "Hard pressed" to find graven images used for idolatry? Ever seen pictures of a hundu temple?
"Has the 2nd commandment lost its relevance?"
No offence, but what you understand the second commandment to mean is not relavent. Never has been since before 787. You have no authority to decide what it means. The Church has determined what the Bible is saying in its prohibition of idolatry in the Mosaic covenant, and it has excluded the Protestant interpretation.
Feel free to attempt to arrogate the authority to decide for yourself what it all means. Lord knows it is a free country, you can believe whatever you want about the bible. When you get tired of pretending to be the pope though, the Church will still be here waiting for you. Same as it ever was. And the true pope will still be sitting in the same dusty chair he has for 2000 years. And people will still be kissing his ring as a sign of respect for his office.
In my arms I still carry flowers from the wilderness,
ReplyDeletethe dew on my hair is from the valleys of the dawn of mankind.
I have prayers that the meadows lend an ear to,
I know how storms are tempered, how water is blessed.
I carry in my womb the secrets of the desert, on my head the noble web of ancient thought.
For I am mother to all earth’s children: why do you scorn me, world, when my Heavenly Father makes me so great?
Behold, in me long-vanished generations still kneel, and out of my soul many pagans shine towards the infinite.
I lay hidden in the temples of their gods,
I was darkly present in the sayings of their wise men.
I was on the towers with their star-gazers,
I was with the solitary women on whom the spirit descended.
I was the desire of all times,
I was the light of all times,
I am the fullness of all times.
I am their great union,
I am their eternal oneness.
I am the way of all their ways,
on me the millennia are drawn to God.
From Hymns to the Church by Gertrut von le Fort She was received into the Church in 1926
Stumbled on this blog and would like to interject.
ReplyDeleteI'm Catholic and I have to be honest. I don't think I've ever seen another Catholic "bow down" before a statue. Maybe it happens but I really have NEVER seen it. I think RMBIV is making it sound like we spend all our time bowing to statues.
I have a statue of the Virgin Mary in my home. I don't recall "bowing" to it. I have some pictures of my earthly mom. I don't "bow" to that either. I see either and think of them the same way. They are both important people in my life. I don't worship my mom and I don't worship Mary. I do, however, honor them both.
So all this obsessing over Catholic's alleged bowing is overblown. It's not like you go into a Catholic Church and there all these statues all over the place and people are all bowing before them. Nope, not even close. And for the one time you may see someone "bow", there are reasons behind it which David explained but I've been Catholic for 10 years and I do not once remember seeing anyone "bow" before a statue. Maybe kneeling,(I don't really even recall seeing that,) but that's not bowing. We kneel to pray and if it's before a statue that's NOT Jesus then we're essentially praying WITH the saint that's represented. If I kneel to pray with some friends, I'm not worshiping my friends and I'm not worshiping the statue or even the human that is represented. I only worship God and you can't tell me otherwise. I know who I'm worshiping. Any devout Catholic knows exactly WHO the center of their life is. JESUS. Although every single one of us is in danger of putting the false idols of money and material things or even some celebrity or great preacher. That's the real danger that any human is susceptible to no matter how much they love God. That's why so many religious orders take the vow of poverty.
The one statue of Mary in my house, on the other hand, could use a dusting.
Good points suburban Mom. Especially about the real "idols" of money etc. that we should be worried about.
ReplyDelete