"I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history." -Cardinal Francis George

Monday, June 6, 2011

Conversation with Jed, Kendra and Bob continued...

Jed you said:

"All authority was transferred (for our dispensation) to Paul."

The early Church and all that the fathers wrote extensively in direct contradiction to that. I think that you will need to explain that somehow. But in the meantime, lets assume for sake of argument that all the writings of the Chruch outside of scripture was all just rank heresy.

 Consider the direct language of the following scriptures which I think you and Stam will heartily agree show Peter recieving all the authority of Christ on earth to lead His Church.

Matt. 16:17-19 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Stam (he has done his homework) gives the Old Testament reasoning behind the keys and interprets this surprisingly like a Catholic! (I have NEVER seen a Protestant interpret it this way or even use this verse from Isaiah. Good for Stam):

Isaiah 22:20-24 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne [seat, or cathedra] to his father's house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.

Jn. 20:21-23 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jn. 21:15-17 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
and my favorite:

Luke 22:31-32 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you [all the apostles] as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Remember Jed, you hold to sola scriptura, not me. so let's be clear here, I don't need to prove my case from the scripture for my position to be internally consistent. For me, the Tradition of the early church and the last 2000 years carries a lot of weight alongside scripture, and obviously the current magisterium does as well. But you do need to unambiguously show your position from the 66 books you hold to be scripture.

So considering the direct language of these and other scriptures where the keys are given to Peter (which, wondrously, you agree with!), what similar scriptures are there showing that, as you say, "All authority was transferred (for our dispensation) to Paul." ? I gave you my best, and have more waiting in the wings if you want them. So give me your best, most clear and explicit exegesis.




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