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here.

Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Basilica of St. Mary Takes out the Trash

The Twin Cities of Minneapolis and Saint Paul are a weird place to live sometimes. It's sort of a Village People meets Little House on the Prairie kind of place. Now that I am becoming Catholic, it is weirder than ever. From CatholicCulture.org:
The Basilica of Saint Mary in Minneapolis, which serves as the co-cathedral of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, has suspended its artist in residence after she announced that she is opposing Archbishop John Neinstedt’s efforts to defend marriage as an institution of one man and one woman. Lucinda Naylor wrote on her Facebook page: "n September 22, the archbishop sent Catholics in the Twin Cities a DVD warning that the sky will fall if Minnesota legalizes same-sex civil marriage. Donate your DVD and I will use it to create a piece of art that transforms that message of fear into one of hope … Let’s use the Archbishop’s DVD to change the message from one of division and fear into a piece of art about inclusion and the joyful Spirit that moves among us."
You see, there are a lot of people here who say they are Catholics with their mouth, but from that same mouth comes heresy and rebellion to basic, settled Church teaching. They are in the strange habit of thinking this kind of thing is OK for some reason. Well, I don't play that way. Your day is done. It is time for you to leave the Church. As a convert who after 15 years wandering in the fog of Protestantism is now falling to my knees in St. Peter's square, I am disgusted by these filthy heretics. You are not Catholics people! Just because you were baptised by a priest and were raised attending mass does not mean you get to make your religion up as you go and pretend it is Catholicism. Read Romans chapter 1 you sick degenerates. If you do not obey the Church on issues which are abundantly clear in Church teaching AND scripture like homosexuality and abortion then you are in danger of hell, pure and simple. Wake up and smell the brimstone. And if you keep insisting by your loud braying and fist pounding to have evil called good by godly bishops like John Neinsted, you really need to ask yourself why you really care what he says. You see, faithful Catholics care what he says because he is our Bishop. But heretics like you care only about your itching ears getting tickled with the latest social garbage spewed by the godless culture we live in the midst of. To Lucinda Naylor and any other heretics in the pews of Catholic parishes in the Twin Cities I say this: Why even call yourself a Catholic if your degenerate beliefs completely contradict the clear teaching of the Catholic Church? I don't claim to be a member of the local Mosque, because... news flash, I don't believe what they believe. So why pretend to be a member of a Church you fundamentally disagree with so much? Why not just become a mainline Protestant (I recommend the PCUSA or ELCA) where you can have all the abortion, homosexuality, and female clergy you can handle? If you refuse to repent and submit to the authority of your Bishop, the Magisterium, and the Pope, then get out. NOW. It is really that simple. If you do what I hope you will do, which is to repent and submit to the Church, then God be praised. Here are excerpts of an article from the Minnesota Independent each are followed by my comments.
With over a million anti-gay marriage DVDs hitting the mailboxes of Minnesota Catholics in the weeks leading up to Election Day, there’s been no shortage of ideas for what to do with them. OutFront Minnesota says that recipients should mark them “return to the sender” and drop them back in the mail to the Catholic diocese which sent them, while others have suggested leaving them in the collection plate at Sunday services. But Minneapolis artist Lucinda Naylor is encouraging Minnesotans to send her the DVD so that she can create an art project to counter the discriminatory message carried by the DVDs with one of “creativity and hope.”
OK. First off, if you disagree with the Archbishop's DVD then you can ask me and I will tell you just what you can "do with them". I will tell you precicely where you can shove them. What you need to ask yourself is this: "why am I pretending to be a Catholic still? I don't agree with the Church on a number of issues that are really important to me, so why am I still going through the motions and pretending to be a Catholic?" You fell away from the faith in college or whatever, and now you want the faith to conform to your twisted view of the world. Why not just leave the Church behind? Second, if I catch you disturbing mass at my parish by putting the disc in the plate or standing outside with a box, you will not be ignored by me, and I very well may silly string you from head to foot while loudly mocking you. (also stay away from my children you sick degenerate)
“I’m an artist who has been doing a lot of work for Catholic churches over the past 15 years, so coming up with an artistic way to deal with the DVDs was my immediate first response,” said Naylor of the 14-minute created by the national Knights of Columbus and distributed by Catholic bishops in Minnesota. “I feel that the archbishop is particularly bent in regard to this issue of same-sex marriage.”
This is a funny one. She is a self described "artist". The fact she wants to make her "art" out of DVD's says a lot. Chesterton said: "The artistic temperament is a disease that affects amateurs." I suspect this is what is going on with this lady. "On Eagles Wings" is probably her favorite song in church as well. It's so "artistic". You can see her version of the Stations of the Cross here. My 18 month old could do better with a box of crayolas and a full diaper to work with. This not art. It is an assault on and a mockery of great art. "Art" like this must be thrown out of the church root and branch and the great patrimony of Church art returned to the people who have been starved to death for decades by "artists" like Naylor for real liturgical art. Below is a picture of Station II: Betrayed by Judas. Ridiculous: Next she calls the archbishop "bent in regard to this issue". Well, it is possible for a Bishop to be bent. It has been known to happen. But the Church makes that determination, not you. What does the Pope say? What does the Catechism say? What does the magisterium say? It is not up for grabs, it is not debatable, it is not up to heretics to decide what they want to believe about it. The Church has spoken, submit to it or abandon the faith. Those are your choices. You are the one who is "bent" on this issue, not archbishop Neinsted.
Lucinda is asking anyone who receives a DVD from the Catholic church to send them to her for an art project. “I have ideas, but it really depends on how many DVDs I get. I’d love to make a large sculpture — probably something rather flame or water like–since both are important Catholic symbols of the Holy Spirit,” she told the Minnesota Independent.
Again, whatever monstrosity you make with these DVD's, your "art" will suck, my children will laugh at it and wonder what in the world it is. You should be ashamed to publicly call yourself a Catholic. Repent.
Naylor says that earlier this year, several of her friends, mostly mothers of gay children, wrote to the archbishop asking him to “open his heart” on the issue of homosexuality, but, she says, “these people received back form letters that called into question their very salvation!” “This alone made me want to act.”
God bless archbishop John Neinsted for caring about the sheep in his flock! He cares enough to tell them the truth. May his reign be long and prosperous in the Twin Cities.
She also said the focus of the election in November should be about justice issues like education, health care and jobs. “The whole gay thing seems to be [Archbishop John] Neinstedt’s personal vendetta and a red herring taking us away from the real important issues.”
Notice no mention of abortion. The all out attack on the family unit in our culture seems to be on the back burner for this heretic, where as "education, health care and jobs" are just so very crucial. How can minds become so twisted? If it was Poland in 1943 I guess she would say "The whole 'concentration camp' thing seems to be [Archbishop John] Neinstedt’s personal vendetta and a red herring taking us away from the real important issues.” Defeating the culture of death is the "real important issue". If you can't submit to the Bishops on that issue, then get out of the Catholic Church.

11 comments:

  1. Lord have mercy. Hang in there.

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  2. I pray for you and all who are so judgmental. You yourself need to repent. Keep all these so-called fallen souls in your prayers but also thank them for this lesson they have taught you.

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  3. Anon, of course I need to repent, I never said I didnt. And gee, *thanks* for praying for a publican like me. Must be hard for you to bear seeing an actual Catholic who cares about the Church try to defend her.
    You have a misguidied idea of being "judgemental". For one thing, Jesus condemns those who judge and "do the same things". Well, I submit to my bishop, the woman I am "judging" in the post above does not. If Archbishop Neinstedt tells me to shut up, I will comply. This woman does not. Her denial of clear Church teaching on this matter (gay marriage) makes her at war with the Church, which makes her at war with any faithful Catholic. Are we all at war with the Church sometimes? Yep! I need repentance all the time. I fing myself woefully failing every day to live up to the high calling of life in Christ.

    BUT, if I start trying to publicly bring others down with me into my sin like Lucinda has done, instead of repenting and trying to deal with my issue privatly with a confessor, then I have made my private sin a scandal. And when that happens, it becomes a stain on the whole Church here in the Twin Cities. As a faithful servant of his Emminence Archbishop Neinstedt, who as our Bishop is the very image of Christ to us, I will not sit quietly by and let people slander him. He is defending some of the most basic elements of our Catholic faith: respect for life, human dignity, and respect for marriage. But people like you obviously dont like that. I wonder why? I wonder why you want to sit by while filth is piled up in the Church but yet use psuedo-Christian language to call me judgemental. Your exegesis is wrong of course, which means you are probably a liberal Catholic who had hippie Catechism training from Father Aquarius back in the 80's. Suggestion: if you disagree with the Catechism or any other Church teaching, please leave and join the ELCA or something. Just get out of the Church. Believe me, you are more than welcome to stay if you are a Catholic, if you believe all the Church believes, but if you don't, then you are a heretic. That is not me being "judgemental" in the way Jesus condemns, that is just a 1+1=2 fact. If you *dissent* you are a heretic, and yes, you are right, you teach Catholics good lessons about orthodoxy. Hearing heretics like the lady in the post spew their venom at my Archbishop teaches me a lot.

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  4. Hi David,

    I agree with Anon, it does appear that you have serious anger issues. I was thinking of posting something along those lines anyway, and then I saw this article... well... lets just say it is obvious.

    As to the issue at hand (same sex marriage), I still think the correct position for the church is to reclaim marriage, and remove it from the realm of the state. After all, the RC's believe it is a sacrament, how about treating it as such and worry about your own congregations instead of what happens at the state level?

    The issue of same-sex marriage would go away if we stopped realizing the states "authority" (wonder where they got that) to determine the issue. The real question is "why" does anyone care? The obvious answer is that there are state sanctioned incentives to being married - weather tax breaks or decision making powers that come with being a "spouse". Of course homosexuals want those benefits. Remove the incentive, and most people would be content to live together (divorce costs to much anyway).

    You may have the true church, and solid doctrine, but posts like the above don't edify anyone or bring people to Christ. It doesn't even effectively fight the same-sex marriage battle - alienating those who disagree and pushing away those on the fence. It doesn't help fight the battle that the Church started loosing 150 years ago here in America.

    If you want to win that battle, take back the authority. To do that, let the state do what it will (gay unions, whatever), but preserve marriage in the church and promote it as holy. And for the love of all that is holy, tone down the rhetoric.

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  5. Bob,
    Yeah, I suppose I was angry when I wrote that article. That lady (Lucinda) chaps my hide. NOT because of what she believes about same sex marriage or her really, really bad art, but because of her disobedience to the bishop. Why wont she just leave if she dislikes the Church so much? I dont get that. If I as part of an organization that battled against my firmly held beliefs, I would leave! I bet you would too. So that is why I wrote it, to encourage her to either submit to the authorities in the Catholic Church, or go elsewhere.
    As to your position on the same sex marriage issue, I think I get it. I was there at one time with your more libertarian view. I even had that view of abortion. And I agree that the state cannot change marriage. Of course not, it is something made by God, so it will always be with us.
    But I have since changed my mind. It is important for a society as a whole, (whether the state or local or whatever), to be ordered towards the protection and promotion of human life. They cannot be neutral. For instance, marriage does need to be recognised by the state if abuses of it are going to be prosecuted.
    Example: In 1977 my father left my mother destitute with 4 kids ages 2-12. He wanted to go chase other women. Lucky for him, California had just passed the new "no fault" divorce. So he easily got a divorce with no questions asked. He did not need to give any reason. That is a crime against society when that happens. Now he perhaps would have left no matter what the state had done. I get that. But the citizens of California deserved better than to just let a man leave his wife to go and commit adultery for no reason. There should have been repercussions/disincentives/punishments. You cant legislate morality true, that is a heart matter. But civil society needs to protect itself from imorality where it can, especially when it affects inocent children.
    The family is the most basic, fundamental unit of society and needs a crtain amount of protection from civil society. Of course that is not ALL it is, it is also a sacrament and has importance that way as well.
    What happens when marriage is redefined by the state is far more than you are letting on in your comment. What about adoptions? Should gay "couples" be able to abuse children by adopting them? That is disgusting! I think it was in Illinois where when gay marriage passed, the main adoption service (which was Catholic) was forced to stop serving the people because they were going to be forced to adopt to gay people. Do you think society should let that happen?
    cont...

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  6. "After all, the RC's believe it is a sacrament, how about treating it as such and worry about your own congregations instead of what happens at the state level?"
    This letter to Lacinda Naylor is me "worrying about my own congregations" yet you criticized me for that.
    I sense an "either/or" in your position on same sex unions. Either we should just worry about our own marriages and forget about what society does, OR we think the state has the right to change the meaning of what marriage is. That is really a false choice. Actually much more so for Catholics, who believe marriage to be one of our 7 sacraments. One thing is for sure, Mark Dayton is just simply not going to effect a sacrament instituted by Christ! :-) In that sense I am quite content and relaxed. My marriage will not be affected by what godless legislators do. But they can still make a mockery of marriage, they can still do harm to it. I live in this state Bob. And if the legislature wants to give men the right to mary dogs (which wil be coming) I will oppose that also, and so should you. Now, that is silly, and of course it is not a real marriage, so why do I care?
    Because it is an assault on humantiy in general and my wife and your wife, and me, and you. The state is saying that we are dogs by alowing a man to mary a dog. Now I am not a dog (usually), I know that. But them saying that people are animals and morality does not exist is quite harmful to society. Who gave the state the right to be the Church Bob? Tell me that. They are trying to do something that only God can do. (change marriage) They are putting themselves in the place of God and we should try as best we can to stop their overreach. You would have us just ignore their power grab and wfocus on our own marriage. Well, I already do focus on my marriage! Always have always will! Then a pack of sodomites come marching up to my door and asks to join the marriage club!

    They need to be slapped down. This article is my drip in the bucket of doing some slapping within MY Church. I have made phonecalls to legislators to have the issue brought up for a vote also. That is slapping at the state level. I will vote on it too at the state level.
    The main point is Bob, is same sex marriage a basic moral evil or a good. Answer: evil. Should the state sanction such a fundamental evil and promote it? No way.

    cont...

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  7. "You may have the true church, and solid doctrine, but posts like the above don't edify anyone or bring people to Christ."

    My point was not to bring anyone to Christ, but to have someone LEAVE the Church who is trying to destroy the faith of Catholics. She can repent or leave. Is there a third option that I missed Bob? And did you really agree with the anon. that I was being "judgemental". Do you see that by her criteria you are judgemental as well? People like that will have us burning at stake saying how judgemental we are within the century my friend. But calling evil by its name is not the type of "judgement" Jesus condemned.

    "It doesn't even effectively fight the same-sex marriage battle - alienating those who disagree and pushing away those on the fence."

    Sorry if I am not gentle 100% of the time. At least I am trying. I sent the article to Lucinda Naylor when I wrote it. That was my focus, to get her to repent OR leave. She is an adult, and she is not "on the fence" Bob. Wake up and smell the cultural decay dude. She was a PAID EMPLOYEE of my church who was directly cotradicting the Archbishop and encouraging others to disobedience!!!

    The fact that you are not on my side on this is telling. I seroiously dont even know what you are advovcating I do.

    "let the state do what it will (gay unions, whatever),"

    Last time I checked I was supposed to have some small say in what the State does. As long as that is the case, I would be disobeying God to not fight against it's attempt to surplant God's authority. It wont surplant it, no. But it can do a hell of a lot of damage on its way down. I will do what I can to fight that diabolical direction.

    I pray you join the fight Bob, instead of laying down and accepting it.

    "It doesn't help fight the battle that the Church started loosing 150 years ago here in America."

    My meager efforts will probably not help. But as Bsd. Mother Teresa said, we are not called to be successfull Bob, just faithful.

    Standing outside an abortion clinic and praying does not look like it will change much either, yet it is a good thing to do.


    "And for the love of all that is holy, tone down the rhetoric."

    In the above post about Lucinda Naylor, I gave LOTS of good reasoning and such. It was not merely rhetoric. Even if it is just mindless rhetoric, so be it. I will not sit by while people piss in the corner during the sermon. It does make me angry, and it should. If your (or the anonymous) point is that i'm not acting just like Jesus would, then your not telling me anything I dont already know. But I like to think there is a time for making a whip and cleaning the temple Bob. The Basilica is in my part of this world, and I will not sit by while hardened heretics piss on my leg and tell me it is raining when it comes to the Christian faith. She is the one who made the scandal, she is the one who tried to ruin the faith of Cahtolics in the Twin Cities. I will get angry, and I will respond.
    If you read other stuff on this blog in general it is not quite as heated. You happened to pick one that I was pretty steamed about.

    Anyway, nice to hear from you. Have an awsome summer.

    Kyrie Eleison,
    David

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  8. Let me explain what I think your (or any church) should do in this day and age with the marriage issue.

    Since church is at least attempting to hold marriage up, they should stop advocating any form of state sanctioned marriage. Get married - in the church - but encourage your parishioners to avoid signing state documents dealing with marriage. Far from laying down, I think this is the best way to dis-empower the state and return marriage to its proper role. The state can only govern those who consent... if RC's everywhere stopped consenting (even on just these issues) and took matters into thier own hands, what better public display that God has left this nation, and what a call to repentance.

    At the same time, advocate at the state level the same rights and privileges for all of us sinners. People should be allowed to enter into voluntary contracts with each other - be it to work and share the fruits of their labor, buy / sell / barter, travel together, live together - basically have contracts of any sort (so long as they are voluntary and enforced justly). The fact of the matter is that the state is denying a certain set of people the ability to make contracts with another set... just because they are homosexual. The church should support voluntary contracts and uphold justice, no matter what the particular sinners sin is, or if the contact is "do business together" or "give my stuff to you when I die", or "live together and split bills".

    Now I doubt that the offending woman in your church sees things this way - and neither does your archbishop. Both are having a reaction to state policy, one to spam your parishioners with DVD's, and the other to find something artistic to express dis-content with that spam.

    In this particular instance, I don't think that the correct choice of action is either "repent or excommunicate". I understand that the RC hierarchy makes it difficult to disagree with authority (something the Orthodox church has less difficulty with). I think the correct action is to love this person, and show her how a life of obedience is preferable to rebellion. Perhaps in time, she will repent on her own. If not, it is between her, God, and her priest. If every Catholic who makes a mistake (potentially destroying the faith of others) is kicked out of the church, it would get pretty lonely pretty quick.

    In fact, from what I know about sins, her's is far from excommunication worthy. She is (most likely) wrong in this case, but isn't the church the best place for a sinner? Perhaps her priest should talk to her about this (and probably already has). This rush to kick out all descent is rather disconcerting, and I hope not indicative of RC's in general.

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  9. "Since church is at least attempting to hold marriage up, they should stop advocating any form of state sanctioned marriage."

    Lets be clear, the state does not (can not) "sanction" marriage. Perhaps they think they can, but that is laughable (and I know you agree). Sanction means to permit or allow, and they can neither permit or deny marriage. Just the other day on the Catholic radio call in show "go ask your father" on AM1330, a caller asked if it was ok to be living with his former wife again because they had been divorced. The Priest said the only concern was if the neighbors thought they were unmarried it could cause scandal, but otherwise congradulated him for returning home to his wife.

    Because there is no such thing as divorce for Catholics. It does not exist for us. Likewise their state marriage documents are worthless for determining if they are married. He said their "divorce" through the State had no meaning. Their State marriage and divorce papers are like craker-jack prizes. Meaningless.

    "encourage your parishioners to avoid signing state documents dealing with marriage."

    Again, I think you are seeing the "State marriage documents" in terms of sanctioning. Whether the state thinks they sanction marriage or not is irellevant. If it gets to the point that we would have to commit idolatry to sign the papers, then yeah, we shouldnt sign. But that has not happened yet.
    It is reasonable for the government to at least know who is married and who is not Bob. The way they do that now (since the Reformation) is more of a power grab, but what isnt. So are drivers licenses. So we live in a overbearing state, what else is new!? St. Paul lived in the ROMAN EMPIRE when he wrtoe Romans 13.

    There are literally hundreds of examples why the State might want to know who is married and who is not. Put yourself in the position of being a police officer or judge and you will see them. Whether property disputes, children, divorce disputes, or general public order, the State (at times) needs to know who is married and who isnt. I do not want to even live next door to a cohabitating couple. And if I were selling them property, I want to know if they are married. That affects my business dealings. Taking their word for it is not good enough. For a contract I would need proof. Before the Reformation, proof resided in the Catholic Church. Since the Reformation, especially in America and other Protestant countries, most people are not Catholic, so they come up with other ways of proving marriage.

    Cont...

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  10. "if RC's everywhere stopped consenting (even on just these issues) and took matters into thier own hands, what better public display that God has left this nation, and what a call to repentance."

    God bless you Bob. I love the idea, and it may be coming to that. Perhaps it should have come to that already. Perhaps if men like you joined the Catholic Church your fresh ideas could jump start the sleeping giant. I would probably join your effort. Lord knows we need more guys like you (and me) that are idealists.
    But as of now, I will stick with the direction of Archbishop Neinstedt, which is to have the state only recognise marriage and not sodomy or lesbianism or polygamy as a legitimate societetal family unit. Watch his video
    . He is a good leader and has the ability to rally hundreds of thousands of people. My efforts will be put to better use right now to support his effort I think. But I think your method may be what happens in the future. You are probably ahead of the curve on this one. I would suggest proposing something in writing to ArchBp. Neinstadt with your idea. It may come into play in the future. After all, in our eyes, because you are baptized, you are a Catholic (in imperfect communion) in our Archdiocese and he is your Bishop. Let him know of your good idea.

    "The fact of the matter is that the state is denying a certain set of people the ability to make contracts with another set... just because they are homosexual."

    I agree. Let them have whatever contract they want. But it must not be in the same category as marriage. The family is THE highest authoritative unit on the planet from which ALL other human authority derives. Two sodomites should not be recognised as having that authority by anyone, let alone governments. Marriage is the basic building block of civilization and must be honored by all humanity. The state seeing Sodomites as being in a situation identical to a marriage is a grave evil, because it degrades all marriages (in the states eyes) to the level of a convenient relationship to gratify ones desire for sex and cheap living. Marriage is different because it shows forth the relationship of Christ and His Church, the Blessed Trinity, and to bring new life into the society. Sodomite "marriage" mocks all these things, and seeks to destroy it.

    "I don't think that the correct choice of action is either "repent or excommunicate"."

    There is no other option now that she has made a public scandal.

    "I think the correct action is to love this person, and show her how a life of obedience is preferable to rebellion."

    I could use help in that area. It is hard for me to do what you suggest. But it should be done WHILE also calling her to publicly repent for her public scandal.

    "If every Catholic who makes a mistake (potentially destroying the faith of others) is kicked out of the church, it would get pretty lonely pretty quick."

    Not really. There is not THAT MUCH public scandal. Basically it would be people like Pelosi and the other "Catholics" in Congress that would be repent, and a few local heretics like Lucinda Naylor. The vast throngs of other sinners in the Catholic Church are like me, who privately repent and confess to our Priest. And yeah, I will confess my lack of charity in this article now that I think about it. And here in this combox, I do hereby apologize to Lucinda for not showing enough of a loving Christian example to her. There, a public repentance.

    cont...

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  11. "Perhaps in time, she will repent on her own. If not, it is between her, God, and her priest."
    But sh did not keep it there. she made it public, and she has had oportunity to repent and has not.

    "In fact, from what I know about sins, her's is far from excommunication worthy."

    Perhaps in Protestantism, but for Catholics, not accepting a teaching definitively put forth by the Church is worthy of excommunication. Excomm. is a "medicinal" act that is meant to restore the person to their faith in Christ which has been lost. Lucinda denies the Churches teaching that Homosexuality is a sin, and publicly encourages other to do the same.

    "Naylor says that earlier this year, several of her friends, mostly mothers of gay children, wrote to the archbishop asking him to “open his heart” on the issue of homosexuality, but, she says, “these people received back form letters that called into question their very salvation!” “This alone made me want to act.”

    The Bishop is right, their salvation is in question if they think they can seperate obedience to Christ from faith in Christ. Neinstadt is my hero for being courageous enough to tell these people the truth.

    "This rush to kick out all descent is rather disconcerting, and I hope not indicative of RC's in general."

    There is no "rush" Bob. These people have been consciously disobeying the Church on this for a DECADES!
    And unfortunately it is not indicative of most RC laity, but it is becoming much more so thank God. Hopeful some of them can be more "loving" than I in the way they warn people of the fires of hell that await them if they do not repent. But I see it as loving to give the warning even if it is not done with smiles and handshakes.

    Nice conversation Bob, I have enjoyed it!

    Later brah,

    David

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