Harold Camping: Man in the Protestants Mirror

Condescending Old Fart, and Heretic After his failed prediction of the rapture, piece of crap false prophet Harold Camping has the following to say to reporters: (I personally transcribed from video from the AP from May 24) (Bold text indicates emphatic, slow voice with hands gesturing in the air for effect)

“On May 21st 2011 we didn’t feel any difference… we didn’t see any difference in the world, but we know from the bible that God brought judgment day to bear on the whole world… the whole world is under judgment day. And it will continue up until October 21 2011 and at that time the whole world will be destroyed. God had not opened our eyes yet to the fact that May 21 was a spiritual coming, as we had thought it was a physical coming, but He has come, he has come in the sense that He now has the world under judgment… if people want me to apologize I can apologize yes, I did not have all of that worked out as exactly as a should have... or wish I could have had it…uh... that doesn’t bother me at all. I’m not a genius, and I pray all the time for wisdom and when I make an error I admit, I say “yes, I was wrong”… I can’t be responsibility of anybody’s life, I’m only teaching the bible. I’m not teaching what I believe or that I’m the authority, but that this is what the bible says. I don’t have spiritual rule over anybody, except my wife.”

OK, so he is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. And is the whole situation deliciously funny? Yes, Hilarious. He is a false prophet and deserves ridicule. But that is not what I want to focus on. I am a very sarcastic person and that is a fault of mine. I eat this kind of thing up because I get to point out someone’s failures which I tell myself I am far from following them into. Of course I have my own problems that I sweep under the rug amongst all my pointing, hooting, and mocking. Mote and beam, you know the drill. So I don’t wish to rub Harold Camping’s nose in his foul hairball he has hacked onto Christianity’s carpet. Anyway, it should be obvious to us all that he is a complete looney. Right? Hmm… But WHY is he a looney? What is at the root? Evangelicals need to ask themselves what is different about Camping’s method of bible interpretation and theirs? I want to argue that no matter which version of sola Scriptura (bible alone) Protestants take, they are solidly in Camping’s “camp” when it comes to method. Coming to a different conclusion does not mean other Protestants are off the hook. You can say all day that you would never predict the rapture day because Jesus says in Matt. 24:36 that we can’t know. And hey YOUR RIGHT! But I want to clue you into the fact that even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day. Even Hitler loved his dog. Pretending the bible is all as easy as interpreting Matt. 24:36 is just silly and sad. Yet that is exactly what Protestants think about their interpretive abilities. Reformed Christians generally don’t even believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, so they like to think they are really far from the likes of Camping. But strangely, when they describe their method of interpretation, it will match Camping 100% Here is what I mean. Take a look at the quote I transcribed. This is what Camping says:

“I’m only teaching the bible. I’m not teaching what I believe or that I’m the authority, but that this is what the bible says.”

This is EXACTLY what any Protestant would say! “BUT,” says Joe Protestant, “Camping is not teaching what the bible really says! He is taking things out of context and making things fit his preconceived view of things! So there!” Of course, I respond Camping would say and believe the same about you! Because the fact remains that he is using the exact same method you are. Cases like his false prophecy are really easy for you to point at and say he got it wrong, but we all know that there is more to bible interpretation than sensational false prophesies. In the everyday world of the average Christian, there are DOZENS of important doctrinal and dogmatic issues that cannot be pointed at with the same confident finger. What about baptism? Is it a sacrament or an ordinance? Does it regenerate or just symbolize? Is it for or infants or adults? And this is merely ONE important issue that Protestants disagree among themselves about “what the bible says”. And you all use the same logic as Camping; that you are just going by “what the bible says”. And sadly, from personal experience I believe you. I don’t believe you set out to deceive yourselves or anyone else, you just want the truth, and you believe your interpretation is true. You want to submit to what you see as an authority outside yourself (the bible) but what you end up with is some man’s opinion of what the bible says (maybe yours, maybe someone else’s, maybe right maybe wrong). To the Protestant skeptic, I offer proof of this fact: Heretic Test. To prove to yourself your method of discovering truth from the bible is no different than Harold Camping’s method; ask yourself the question “How would my current situation look different if my interpretation were wrong?” That is to say, assuming your current reading of scripture on (doctrine X) is correct, what would be different in your approach/interpretation in a situation where you fell into error? If there is no difference in what you would say or feel between these two situations, then what makes you so sure you are not in grave error? Remember we are talking about method not result. Again, let’s assume for sake of argument one of the following propositions: A. You have properly interpreted the bible and understand what God is saying in His word about doctrine X. B. You have completely misinterpreted the bible and have an incorrect interpretation of doctrine X. Now let’s ask our question. If your current situation is A, what would be different about how you would describe your situation from within situation B? What would you say differently? If you believe you are in situation A at this moment (pick a doctrine), what would you say right now about your own situation that Harold Camping would not say about his situation? (queue Jeopardy music...) Answer? The fact is you would say nothing substantially different from him. You would say you have taken the bible at it’s word, that you have studied hard and asked the Spirit for help, that you had prayed for wisdom, and had gleaned the truth from the bible. In short, you would say you are following the bible. Harold Camping would say the exact same as you. So I ask you, how are you any different from him in this respect? If you can’t point to a difference, then there is none my friend! Tu quoque? As a Catholic, I do not fall into this trap with you. When I look at situation A above, I am using the Magisterium (teaching office) of the Church as a guide. So when I ask the question “what would be different?” my answer is that my doctrine would have to change from that of the Magisterium. For instance, a Catholic CANNOT hold to premillenialism and the usual “rapture” theology it entails. That is specifically forbiden for Catholics to hold that view. So if I were to start believing that tomorrow, I would immediately find a big change in my method. I will find that I no longer am in agreement with the Church on this matter and have either ignored or disobeyed the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium of the Church. Bishops of the world gathered at the Second Vatican council. I can then either return to orthodox belief or remain in my heresy, but either way, there is quite a difference in my situation, and I (unlike you) can describe it to you in detail. The Protestant (you) has no such difference. Each doctrinal position he takes will be for the same reasons as the gravest heretic, and both roads are paved with the best of motives and most inocent intentions. The Protestant looks over and sees the heretic saying he believes the bible, the protestant believes the same, and would say the same. The Protestant looks over and sees the heretic claiming the bible as his highest authority (and truly believing so) and the Protestant would say THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT HIS OWN SITUATION. If you behave like a heretic, talk like one, and can’t tell the difference between yourself and a heretic… then you are a heretic! So Protestants, I suggest you not be so quick to laugh at Harold Camping. You are standing shoulder to shoulder with him under the banner of sola Scriptura, using the EXACT same arguments he does and saying the EXACT same things about scripture he does, so the conclusion is inevitable: you are objectively a heretic just like he is. You fool! Cower in shame before the bishops of the Church Christ founded and repent of your arrogation of authority. There is ONE faith, and ONE, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. Crawl back to Christ on your hands and knees and beg his priests for absolution for your schism. Kyrie Eleison!

Uncomfortable quote for Protestants

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon in 180 AD:

“It is incumbent to obey the priests who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate [bishops], have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth” (Against Heresies, 4:26:2)

If this quote makes you uncomfortable, you are not in the Church that Christ started. Repent and come to Jesus.

Doug Wilson says faithful Catholics will go to hell

Here is the short video from Doug:

Will Faithful Roman Catholics go to heaven from Canon Wired on Vimeo.

Here is the comment I left on the video: I am a recent convert to the Church, (the Catholic Church) and have been steeped in Reformed theology about as much as a layman can be. So I think I understand what I am leaving behind (and what I am able to keep from it) and where I am going. Upon unbiased examination, Rome is simply not what I was told she was. The main difference (according to Protestants) seems to boil down to imputation Vs. infusion. Well, if you have a proper understanding of the primacy of grace in Catholic theology, then this distinction just does not add up to a reason to stay separated from the Church Christ founded. Grace is ALWAYS first in Catholic theology. If infused grace makes me holy, that sure looks like the work of God to me. Protestants like to focus on Eph 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Catholics love that verse as well but have a better way of explaining verse 10: "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Infusion is a much more beautiful doctrine. God is not content that we remain in our sin. We must be perfect as Jesus said we must. And that perfection comes from Him in both Catholic and Reformed theology. If Luther's snow-covered dunghill (imputation) were not merely snow-covered but instead transformed by God into pure snow from top to bottom (infusion), which is more miraculous? Which is more monergistic? Which gives more glory to God? Infusion of course. As far as Doug thinking I will be in hell (for I certainly think I understand Catholic theology and reject the Protestant understanding of sola fide) I am OK with that. I respect his conviction. But let it be known that Catholics believe the same. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Unless you are invincibly ignorant of the identity Christ's Church, you will be damned for rejecting her. As the church father St. Irenaeus said in 180 AD: "It is incumbent to obey the priests who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (Against Heresies, 4:26:2) Why should I listen to Protestants with no authority from Christ? Your personal exegesis just is not impressive (been there done that)... sorry, but all the chest pounding and bible thumping you can muster will not make your interpretation of scripture anything more than your opinion. Who started your Church again? What year did he start it? What Bishop in the line of succession authorized it? The Reformed believe in ecclesial deism, and hold to a "conservative" religion that is merely another century's liberalism. Wake up to Mother Church. http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/